Gettin' Compromised?

[blueraven]

You know I gotta tell you guys. I’m getting afraid.!

See besides the usual influence of the rhythm and blues artists I grew up with, James Brown and Otis and big Momma Thorton down in Macon, and then “the white boys”, Lonnie Mack(Scratchie) and the Buckinghams and the Stones and the Beatles , and many others of the era, I’ve always steered clear of other music.

See I figured if I get to close to it I’d get influenced by it and not be able to express my real music.

Now the only artists I figure worth paying attention to was:

Doc and Merle
Jean_Luc Ponty, and
Joe Pass.

After going back and listening to John and Bill and Joe and T. I ain’t so sure anymore..

See I never, I guess… shared it. Not sure what I’m trying to say here and it’s not that I’m afraid to do that. Its just that being creative isn’t for other people. It’s for me. It’s for what I feel and I don’t want that feeling to be compromised..

Is this too strange or freaky for you guys?

Rick

[blueraven]

Dang I forgot to mention "T" ..toooo.!

[Treeline]

You worry too much. Play it!
_________________
Recognize. Adapt. Overcome.

[blueraven]

Tree

Tell me your not influenced by some other music players. Tell me they don't effect HOW you do your business.

Rick

[Tightrope]

Not to get too philosophical - but hey - we're all a product of our influences - be it family, friends, music, religion, athletes..... Nothing exists in itself, and nothing can be judged in itself - only in relationship to other things. But somehow we're also all unique.

I say don't be afraid of influences; embrace them, integrate them, and spill them out them out in your own unique and creative way.
_________________
- Larry

My CD
Newer Stuff

[Cidy Zoo]

Hi Blueraven,

"No man is an island"... I don't know why, I just had to say that!


Were you refering to me? You listened to my music? Holy mackeral, now you're ruined 'fer sure!

Sorry, just kidding. You haven't been here long if you think you're too strange or freaky for this group. I am an artist, and an actor as well as a musician. As such, I wrestle with the strange dynamic of "why" we create on several different levels. Do we do for accolades? For applause? Is that simply vanity? Do you create so someone else will validate you? Or do you create to satisfy a need within your self?

Let me put it this way: If you were on a desert island, with no hope of rescue and you had pen and paper, would you express yourself by drawing, or writing verse? If you had a voice, would you sing if no one would hear you (ever) except yourself? I believe a true artist would! And inside everyone at some level is an artist.

I think it is a deep curse when you start to create for approval, or worse yet vanity (a common affliction amongst musicians and actors in my personal experience). Many people say simply, "make a joyful noise unto the lord. Create beauty or emotional expression because that is the nature of life and being alive itself." I think that is where I stand now. I have done a lot of peforming of different types, and I am forced to admit for many years my motivation was simply vanity and my art suffered because of that.

Deep down I think we should create for ourselves. We will never satisy ourselves, that is the nature of a creative mind. Feeling satisfied with your work (smug) is a sure fire way to "put out the fire" in my opinion. No great artist I've known was ever satisfied with his work. We aways try to do it better next time. To strive for unatainable perection. It's a great motivator!

Of course, I have seen quite a few self-absorbed creative types who think they are something special, better than mere mortals who aren't "artists", but most of them were just full of crap!

I agree, if you create music for yourself you'll do your best work. But take care that vanity doesn't stop you from learning from others.

Music is an interesting art. Part creativity, part technical ability, part building on what others have discovered, part trying to discover something new for yourself. A "recording artist/sound engineer/mixer" as a subset of musical creativity presents interesting dilemas also. Should you invent your own recording device or adopt the technology that you had no part in "creating"? Do you learn what makes a good sounding mix by listening to what others have done, or don't ever listen to any music for fear it will pollute your virginal creativity?

Hmmmm.. it is a puzzlement!

~ Bill

[blueraven]

Well I believe that the best are those that do there own music and perform it and embrace people like Beck, Karla Bonoff, Jackson Brown. People like Ronstadt and Elvis are/where amazing interpreters. To me, people like Bonoff or Fogleberg are the real creators.

That's not to say people who write but don't perform their work are not creative.

I guess it is indeed subjective and up to the individual to decide.

I have, in the last few months, listened to some guitarist on utube etc Some are just doing imitations of other guitar players but some do it very very well. Better than I could. Are they creative. They surely are talented.

I guess its the monkey in all of us to do that sort of thing. Natural.

Like Tr said. Integrate it and move on.

I think my experience since coming here has been good tho. Like T's last song. I now have a new impetus to use my banjo. If I had not listened to that, I would have not thought about it..Thats a good thing I think. Was it my own idea? I prob would have done it anyways but now its more up front and pertinent.

I think the muse is allusive and knowing how much is your own real creativity and how much is borrowed can never be answered.

Like you said Bill, its a riddle inside a enigma inside an ever allusive muse.

I really liked your discussion of it. Def food for thought.

Happy Notes

rick

[wardshorsehead]

the notion that each of us has a well of creativity that can be realized in some pure way, devoid of distractions and influence is bunk.

the idea that listening to other people's music, and having any sort of fear or concern that it will unduly affect us as musicians is bizarre. it will influence us, and that is a good thing.

the very best musicians i've ever known love music. the more you listen to music, the more you learn.

if you want to have an original voice, avoiding other music is never the path.

listening, learning, experimenting, practicing, and learning your instrument are all important - none are as important as listening in my opinion.

to create music without listening, would be like writing a novel without ever having read one. or, writing a novel after reading the works of only a single writer. or work in a single style or genre.

the point is, that the well read author will invariably write a better novel, with a more original voice than the author who greatly limited his reading material.

the more you limit the music you listen to, the less likely you are to produce interesting music in your own voice. we are all products of our influences. the broader and more diverse they are, the more unique and original our musical voice will become.

frank

[blueraven]

Frank,

I cannot dispute what you just said.

For me tho, I feel the things I create are less my creations if I incorporate others creations into it. I know that's impossible to do because we're made of the sum of our experiences. In the past I have gone out of my way TO NOT listen to others for that reason.

As I said in an earlier post, I may be coming around to exactly what you posted.

I have noticed when people comment on other music, they invariably compare it to some already created. I do that to..That validates your comments.

If you listen to Jean-Luc Ponty "the Imaginary Voyage" tho, you'll hear a truly unique creation..Rare indeed.

Rick.

[Havlicek]

As mentioned above, anyone who thinks they're doing something "new" is practicing self deception. Stuff like Jean-Luc Ponty also is not "new". The freshest stuff generally comes out of finding new ways to combine styles and influences and the best we can hope for is to not be sued for copyright infringement at this point :-) Maybe completely atonal music and soundscapes when they first happened were "new" in a sense, but even that stuff evolved out of other sources like soundtracks and cinema sound effects.

Pieces like those done by our own Ambientdrone are about as far removed from traditional western influences as you get...and still call it music (I do)...yet there's even a frame of reference for that in the drone/tonal music of some eastern cultures. Aboriginal music as well (probably because it evolved within a culture that was isolated) is pretty far removed from our concept of music.

The mixing of cultures and influences does create...over time...new and evolving forms. Like pretty much ALL rock and jazz can be seen as a direct extension of African influences and rhythms. Toss-in some folk, gospel and classical and...bingo! It's like pissing into the wind to think that anyone is going to come up with a truly "new" form by not listening to other people's music. People are by nature both individual...as well as born mimics. What makes each person's music unique is their individual "voice". Learning to "speak musically" in your own unique/individual way and developing what it is that separates you from others is the test we all face. After that, becoming comfortable and confident with all that is another biggie. We naturally and often without intention incorporate the styles that "connect" with us. What is to be gained from trying (however futile that may be) to fight that?

Like the commercial says...just do it.

-john
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BUY MY CD @ SONGRAMP

johnhavlicek.com

[Mount Russmore]

I used to get pissed whenever I would play a new song of mine for someone and their FIRST comment would be "Oh my God, you sound just like _____!" Well, now I'm older and wiser and this has stopped bothering me completely. I do the same thing myself. When we hear something new, we have an intrinsic need to compare and categorize with what we've heard before.

Now, as long as the comparison is to someone of talent, I take it as a compliment. And I usually can admit to myself what influences I've "copped" before the song's finished. Sometimes we consciously set out to pay tribute to the artists we love. Sometimes it just comes out naturally as an extension of our writing.

No two people have the same personality. As long as you have a genuine love of songwriting and musicianship, AND you put in the time to develop your craft, your unique voice will come through. To paraphrase John Mellencamp- "Forget all about that (philosophical) shit and learn how to play guitar!"

[Treeline]

[picksnsticks]

[blueraven]

Sure is neat to get all the different ideas about music and its creation.

John,,

I disagree with you about Jean-Luc Ponty. He took a classical background and put together one of the most creative and unique forms of sounds heard at that time. Timeline was around 1976-1980. The passion and emotion of that music not to mention the extreme musicianship makes it unique. And that is what I said. Not "new".

Basically a mixture of Jazz, classical, progressive and as a a review said , noise.

If you get the time, listen to 32 songs on the Anthology cd set. The bass player is almost unbelievable at times as well as the guitar player. And you would need to hear it all to appreciate it.

Here's description: http://www.ram.org/music/reviews/jeanluc_ponty.html

Treeline,

I wasn't able to hook up to that site you gave..I sure want to hear it to.

Thanks

[Havlicek]

...well then we'll have to agree to disagree. The more music you hear the more you realise there's nothing new under the sun.

-john
_________________
BUY MY CD @ SONGRAMP

johnhavlicek.com

[Treeline]

[Treeline]

[blueraven]

T,

[Treeline]

[Havlicek]

[Reddirt]

Rick, I reckon Bill pretty well said it all in his first post. We ultimately are
creative beings - work with the right motivation , i.e. from the heart as much as possible , honour the music as opposed to yourself and your dilemmas will cease
I know it's easy to say, challenging to do but that opens up a whole new vista of how to make sense of it all.
Cheers, Ross

[msperanza]

As I recall the guitar palyer for a lot of Jon-Luc's stuff was Alan Holdsworth
_________________
All the best
Mark
www.martialartny.com
info@martialartny.com

[blueraven]

John,

AFAICT, everyone that has posted in this thread agrees.

As my orig post stated, I was for many years stand-off-fish about listening to other peoples music. Afraid of being influenced by their music.

But after listening to you and others here, I've gotten some new ideas. Like T using the banjo..Hey I can do that. Now like CZ, using the 12-string. hey I can do that..

Its kinda like a revelation for me actually..And all because of the folks here sharing..thats the point.

Rick

[blueraven]

Mark,

You have good memory..Correct. awesome. However, I stink he used some of the very first guitar synthesizers to get some of his sounds. I've tried to emulate some of it and its hard. As he was counter pointing Jean-Luc's fiddle.

Remember Jean-Luc played with Stephane Grappelli and Grappelli played with Django.

I saw them in a very intimate environ in ATL in the late 70's..'cept for Shawn Phillips, best concert every.

If you get a hair, listen to 2 cuts.

1. Enigmatic Voyage, Part 3. The bass part is driving me crazy.

2. Mirage. Trying to emulate his fiddle is also driving me crazy.

rick

[Cidy Zoo]

Nice discussion guys, entertaining as well as insightful. I love mulling over ideas about creativity. It motivates me to create!

And to tell the truth, I have been feeling a little sorry for myself 'cause of my arm and I guess I needed some motivation. Right now you guys are providing it with your kind and supportive comments about my work.

My family helps, my bro-in-law is backing me up an guitar at the gigs I didn't cancel, and did I tell you he won the local GC "King of the Blues" contest and is going on to the regionals? (I guess that was a little bitter-sweet for me watching from the sidelines), but this little community here (and over at songramp) is about being creative just for the love of music. Not for the applause.

This is what it is all about. Not being the fastest guitar player, which I could never have been anyway (I watch You-Tube too!), but about the music!

I've never met any of you in person, but thank you, thank you, thank you. I feel like I am in a community of brethren spirits. This is real therapy for me...

~ Bill